Disfellowshipping someone who refuses repentence and change should not be a life sentence as it is not so in scripture. As far as Sprouls Jrs removal from the church goes, my thoughts would go along the line of will this help him hit rock bottom & genuinely pursue help, given how long he seems to have been drinking?, plus is this a healthy environment for him? Given the propensity of evangelicalism to put the wrong people on a pedestal, encouraging them to continue behaviours which hurt others (i.e. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . Velour wrote: Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. A sort of similar tale in our county. Eventually, he regained visitation with his son and found a job. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. If any are reading and know what Im talking about, please contact me. So I am left with confusion. Does he have other actual convictions for DUIs or endangering the children? that if a person who is in peril holds his hand out to Our Lord, Our Lord takes his hand and saves him, too many hate preachers out there, Im afraid, so discouraging and spreading despair instead of hope and all I can do is ask Why? when all around them is life and light, but they cannot see. Were not just talking about an alcoholic (RC Sproul Jr). Very well stated. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. RC Jr also refused to leave. Sorry I cant help you, friend. But the church should also do their level-best to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown alcoholic with all of the classic symptoms. I get that we all sinbut this is different. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. R.C. I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. 104:1415). 6:1-4: What shall we say, then? Sadly those poor folks he advised not to take their medicines were far more intelligent and realistic than Sproul Jr. I thought that the criticisms raised of Barbara & Julie-Anne had been well & plentifully explained by them. It makes me very sad that a gathering place like this, which seems to be a collection of misfits and wounded sheep (like me) cant do any better than this. You may recall that he wrote a post about the Ashley Madison scandal, knowing he had an account, and later had to confess after he was outed. There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. From what Im seeing on this thread, RC Jr. is Mark Driscoll, but only with more beer added. 1, Beverly, passed away at 10:05 PM Wednesday, February 1, 2006 in the Ruby Memorial Hospital in Morgantown. I am well aware of the failure rates of alcoholics and substance abusers. Alcoholics cannot be helped and wont be helped if they dont want it. The Bible teaches us what true fellowship of the believer looks like. I'm astonished he hasn't killed someone already.". But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. Sin is cosmic treason against The Holy God. No excuses for it, ever. In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. Ive read all your comments to this point, yes, and Im still mystified why you are so upset with other peoples comments. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. I learned fairly early in life to fear drunk driving. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.) I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). I agree that he should lose his job for his abuses and that he should not be enabled. No, I saw your list. Without accountability, anything else is worthless. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. I dont have a lot of hope that this will happen, however. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. Moreover, I am even less convinced that your average church is in any way qualified to intervene in the typical alky scenario. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. Correction of typo (I wish we could edit here! Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. This thread started about S Jnr & comments were specific to his situation alone. Here is what he REALLY said. they have no religious trappings and baggage. ) Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. That is where God met me and my family member. Often it is tried multiple times. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. Do the Ligonier people believe that a person or a nature died on the Cross? After a total of 35 years I got entirely out of clinical and went into what the licensure people call administrative which is a wastebasket term for non-clinical and did that for 15 years. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? Drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not because he had felonies. Again, 1 Cor. a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. Just because that information wasnt provided, however, doesnt mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled Will he receive it? They didnt get to attend her wedding or hold their grandchildren. Alcoholism changes the persons brain. What a wonderful ministry that you have had! It was never a put down, and the first time I heard it used there was by the recovering alcoholics. It seems like I had read he was a wife abuser? The Downeys had two daughters, Patricia and Shirley. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. I posted the list about the multi-pronged issues that R.C. so ridiculous. It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. I was not laughing at alcoholics. Sproultried to get this heard in theDrug Court but was unsuccessful because he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. I dont get your reasoning on any of this. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? THEN, the problem grows even larger. False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. That is an exaggeration and overstatement. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. Thank you, Deb. I am glad to hear about your sons recovery. I am very familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their behavior. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. You have a good heart. Things that make perfect sense to you do not compute for the alcoholic, and vice versa. We all pretty much know what the ideal scenarios are for alcoholics. Lea wrote: I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. R.C. But unless you are the owner of the blog its not okay for you to tell someone else to stop responding to you. Why does someone have to specifically endorse treatment for someone or something in order to confirm in your mind that they are not anti-treatment? I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. So I was only saying what the Bible says. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. I truly hurt for you. Yes, help the addicted but not at the expense of the children, they are the true innocent party to it all, they suffer the most. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. It was not (so far as I know) used to get rid of people as punishment for disagreeing with the leaders. In fact, thats one reason AA has been controversial, because people are sent for mandatory treatment by the courts who dont actual want to quit. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. H.A. didn't want to slow down enough to safely take the corners. Velour wrote: Alcoholism as the saying goes is a family disease. I summarized the issues with R.C. Albert Mohler is a Social Justice Warrior, make no mistake about it. As a Christian I have to look at it like their eternal soul is the MOST important thing of all, much more important than any earthly hardships could be. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. We were the only church for many miles around who had a CR group. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. @ Max: And yes, we must continue to pray. Two people made comments to me and they expected replies. 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. Yes, the pain is awful. Alcohol can kill, it can ruin marriages and finances and it's a waste of Gods finances but that is all my personal opinion. You started talking about me the same way and I was offended by your words. Yes, that daughter needs HELP!!! Is depression, grief, or anxiety mentioned in that passage or a similar one in the Bible? Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. Their brains truly dont work. And one thing an alky can sniff out in a heartbeat is an ignorant person trying to give them advice. Some of the members (not necessarily the elders) of that church were indeed empathetic and caring, and went out of their way to meet with those who had been put out of the church. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. Muff Potter wrote: I dont like others to speak for me. Velour wrote: Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. An inexpressible blessing. I have read it several times, actually. Who Where Receive obituaries Virginia M. Peterson February 25, 2023 (95 years old) View obituary Jean Mastroianni February 22, 2023 View obituary Francis Koprivnikar Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee) If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. No one can make him do that. In the end, people hurt. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I dont think he should. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. Intervention: the RIGHT kind by STRONG people who really care about him is needed before a tragedy unfolds. Lets Take a Breather With A Bizarre Story about R.C. Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. Q. @ refugee: Its not about hypocrisy, its about the fact that we all have feet of clay and yet strive to do what is right, stumbling as we keep walking. It was spiritual abuse, a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. Very well said. Velour wrote: We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. Did you miss my comment to you at 4:41 p.m. today? It caused him to victim-blame everyone any time they shared some struggle they were going through with him, even though they were not at fault. And the steam burns from the radiator explosion on the picture they look like first-degree burns. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road.. Thank you. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. Pain is no fun and draining. WHEN THE MAN WHO ABUSES YOU IS ALSO A COP. Drunk/ drug driving maims and kills. (Guy was kind of a jerk, but still) He was taking a shortcut home from work on his motorcycle when a drunk head-oned his bike. Someone (I dont know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink and give drink to children! After looking at the church website, I could find no indication that it was a Foursquare church; however, I did find this which has the same Pine Hills Church listed and has Foursquare shown at the top of the site. "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" Ill be praying for you and your circle. About the three teens I mentioned: The other one has been deeply depressed and suicidal for at least a year. codependency). I have been following RCs teaching for some time. the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. It works some of the time. Im not expert enough to know what the truth is in that area.

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